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Post by vividlyvisceral on May 18, 2011 1:21:16 GMT -8
A different topic from 'female empowerment', because this isn't discussing what counts as empowerment and what doesn't. This is a topic about the many stances/opinions one might have about feminism.
-so I'll kick it off with my blasé opinion. (don't expected to be wow'd or anything.)
I believe that feminism is, in layman's terms, "a good thing"- but only in a basic way. I like the idea of men and women having equal opportunities and not being judged on their sex. After all, why should a man be expected to do hard labor more than a woman, and why should a woman be expected to do things like cooking/cleaning more than a man?
We should be able to feel that we're respected as much as a man is in the workplace, and not to feel like we're lesser beings in any way.
However I have to say that I really don't approve of the 'men are pigs' mindset that some women running about calling themselves feminists use. Not all guys are chauvinists or misogynists. There's still a lot of stigma around that 'women are princesses who need to be protected', but that's sort of our fault as well.
I'll admit it- I like playing the "don't ask me to lift that, I'm a frail little girl" card among male friends, and on a large scale that might be what is continuing this stigma- but I'm not what you would call very feminist. I make inappropriate jokes, exclaim that I'd rather be a housewife/mother than have a career (which is true. My dream is to have that wonderful home I've never had, marry my sweetheart and raise a happy family whilst I enjoy writing. Mock my dream and I'll get quite angry.) and other such things.
But, when I was younger I thought- and still sort of do- that if feminism succeeded, that it meant that a woman could 'stay in the kitchen' if she wanted to, just as much as she could go fight in a war or work on the top floor of the office. I just thought it would get rid of the stereotype expectations. We'd no longer be expected to stay in the kitchen or stay below the glass ceiling.
It'd also mean that men could stay home with the children, 'stay in the kitchen' if they wanted as well.
Anyway, this is a very unstructured opening post, but I just want to see what other people say. Haha.
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Post by Rowena on May 18, 2011 14:43:13 GMT -8
Vivid, I've never thought of it that way - the way you stated in your last full paragraph. I really like that idea. Personally, and probably just because a) all of my guy friends constantly make jokes about how women "belong in the kitchen" and should "go make them a sammich" and b) I can't imagine being a housewife or stay-at-home anything because I would be very bored, I sometimes feel like women who choose to do that are holding feminism back. Not that I'm insulting your dream, because I really like the way you put it there...it's unfortunate that, should that be someone's dream, annoying people like me judge them for it, simply because we haven't really reached that stage where men and women are equal yet. Again, not insulting your dream, simply sharing how I used to think of that sort of dream. I'll probably change my opinion now because I think the reason you want to have that is a very, very good one  Anyway, I love this topic *bounces* I get a lot of shit in my English class because I argue with my teacher, usually accusing him of being sort of sexist, and it annoys everyone. Our main argument this year was about Daisy in The Great Gatsby, who he *hates* but that's another story. We also read this book, Jasmine, that you probably haven't read, so spoiler alert if you were ever planning to do so. In it, the main character, Jasmine, works for a couple with an adopted daughter. Then the mother falls in love with someone else and leaves her husband for him. Later, Jasmine meets a banker who is older than her, and said banker leaves his wife for Jasmine. Later, Jasmine leaves the banker. What annoyed me was that everyone was all up in arms about the woman Jasmine worked for "abandoning" her husband and child, but no one seemed to care much that the banker had divorced his wife - who he'd been married to for much longer than the couple Jasmine worked for had been married - to be with Jasmine. Also, people disliked the fact that Jasmine was considering leaving the banker, because he was in a wheelchair and couldn't take care of himself (he wasn't in a wheelchair when they meant). Apparently, even though she was only 20-something, she was supposed to give up her dreams and be his caretaker for the rest of his life. The whole him-being-in-a-wheelchair thing notwithstanding (because, while I dislike the fact that the girl is expected to be the caretaker, she was living with him when he was injured and he does need someone to take care of him), I found this such a double standard. When the woman leaves her husband, she seems mean and cruel, while when the banker left his wife for Jasmine, no one batted an eye. The even more annoying thing was that of my English class, which has more girls than boys, everyone except me and my friend though Jasmine and the wife were the bad guys. !!! That's why I'm feminist - because of this huge double standard, which is portrayed in the media and forced into our subconcious even today. That's actually what I wrote my essay on that book on - how sexism in the media causes boys and girls to be subconciously sexist from a young age. I'm really looking forward to reading a book about that which I have on hold at the library - Cinderella Ate My Daughter - because I love research about how the media affects our view of things. This video is not only really entertaining, but in my opinion a great summary of the whole sexism-in-the-media thing, if anyone else besides me finds that super interesting... |
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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on May 18, 2011 18:32:21 GMT -8
Absolutely. And it drives me crazy when other women throw a fit over this. Feminism is about choices, and if a woman wants to be a housewife then she should be able to do so without judgment as it's her choice.
It's something I'd like to be able to do, but with what I want to do with my life it'd be not feasible. On the other hand, Rane, as a graphic designer and artist, would do a whole lot of work at home. So if he can sit there and help me raise children, that shouldn't be a problem? I do still have a soft spot for wanting to be able to cook for him, or make challah on Friday or something.
Rowena: That double standard gets to me, too. It's like if a woman does that she's a cheating whore or something, but if a guy does it...he gets less of a stigma. I have also never understood why a woman blames the other woman for "stealing her man away" when the guy made a choice to cheat.
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Post by vividlyvisceral on May 30, 2011 18:28:07 GMT -8
My belief is that if you don't love someone, yes- you should leave them. Because it isn't healthy for either of you, staying with someone because of obligation or having someone stay with you and pretend to love you.
I was in a relationship where I didn't leave because I thought I'd never find anyone else. Needless to say, I was miserable. And it ended with him cheating on me.
Double standards are just, ugh. Sorry, I can't be too literate with my words because after a life of dealing with them you tend to get muddled. If you leave someone, it's natural for people to tut and judge you nine ways 'til Sunday- but why should a man be less judged than a woman? It's not all that fair.
See I think that's really beautiful and sweet. :3 I think if a girl wants to cook for a guy it's a sign of affection, not obligation. A woman doesn't have to cook, she can choose to.
We had a similar study in Society and Culture, all these stories of delicate princesses and rugged, manly woodcutters having an effect on children.
I LOVE that title though. Absolutely brilliant, haha.
I've only read one piece of feminist literature- 'The Whole Woman' by Germaine Greer- and it's remarkable how many topics there are and how far this double standard goes. It even goes to our bodies, where men are seen as whole, but women are seen as 'empty' or 'incomplete' if they aren't pregnant.
(LONG story. It made my jaw gape open a little though.)
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Post by Rowena on May 31, 2011 10:52:10 GMT -8
Ooo I might have to read that over the summer. How the media affects our view of things really interests me, but unfortunately the book hasn't come into the library yet *pouts* I did read Tina Fey's autobiography though...that was good.
/off topic rant
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Post by KATE on Jun 8, 2011 19:14:43 GMT -8
When it comes to feminism, I really think that its a two way street. If women expect to welcomed into the work fields dominated by men, we had better be just as welcoming to the men that want to be stay at home dads.
I do think that women that do play the frail thing doesn't help, if you can't do it thats fine, but the thing is its carried over to some of us who can do the work. I was a group of people who were designing and building a landscape for plant boxes. I was one of two girls involved. For the 20 week project, 15 of those weeks I was left in an office doing nothing but making signs for what type of plants would be on disply. The guys were taken out in the field, taught how to drive heavy equiptment, got to build planting boxes, planted treees, built paths. The last 5 weeks I got to go out, they would let me touch a hammer, I got to pull non-existant weeds and roll out landscape cloth...that was only half the size of normal rolls because the guys had to lift the heavier rolls (maybe 50 pounds). This os one of those things that really makes me mad. Its assumed guys can do the heavy lifting while girls can't, yes I may be an exception to some things but having the option would be nice. A year later I was working in a greenhouse, four guys were chosen to move one of our heavy 450 pound tables. One of them was a freshman and as they were backing away, he tripped and fell and the table was about to follow. I grabbed the corner and kept it up and all the guys couldn't believe I managed to hold up the corner.
Thats my biggest issue with the feminism thing, too many people don't give women a chance to show what they are capable of. A man is expected to do anything he sets his mind to. If he wants to be the biggest jock in the world he can. If he wants to work the office, he can. Women have slowly been working into the office mind set. Yes, women are capable of following into anything that requires the mind, but past that we are treated, and even accept that we are physically inferior to men.
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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on Jun 14, 2011 18:01:05 GMT -8
I don't like it to be seen as "physically inferior" to men. Yeah we have less upper body strength but we have more endurance--we're built for that, for hauling babies around everywhere and all that. And so though now we may not be hauling babies around, I think when it comes to physical tasks what we can do and can't do should be taken into consideration more than "aw, she's so weak she can't lift this heavy thing."
I would really like to read that book, too, about Cinderella. It's a tale you grow up with being told, but only when you're older and you sit down and think about it, you realize that she sits there and has other people decide her fate and is swept away by prince instead of being like Cartman and saying, "Screw you guys; I'm going."
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Post by Rowena on Jun 15, 2011 8:43:45 GMT -8
The book is very good. You should read it. It's called Cinderella Ate My Daughter by Peggy Orenstein. It's about the new girlie-girl culture in the media. I also reccomend Susan Douglas's Enlightened Sexism: The seductive message that feminism's work is done which I'm reading right now |
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Post by maxrider12 on Jun 15, 2011 10:26:36 GMT -8
Okay, I am way too lazy to read this whole thing, so here is my opinion:
I think that if, back when it was decided that "men were greater and women were inferior" if someone had taken into account things like giving birth, women would be the sex considered "superior."
I also like to think that, sometime in the future, everyone will have forgotten that women were supposed to be inferior. After that, either both sexes would be equal (which is the preferred route) or women would be considered "superior" (which is the second most preferred route). Let's face it--men have had their time in the sun, let's give women a chance.
Anyway, I usually write something long and profound, but I just woke up and ate some cookie dough, so my mind isn't functioning in a profound way right now.
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Post by Rowena on Jun 16, 2011 11:09:21 GMT -8
I would like to think that sometime in the future, men and women will be considered equal as well - in the futuristic novel I'm going to write for JulNo, I'm using this premise - but the research into the current media and pop culture trends show that, sadly, it doesn't seem like this time is going to be anytime in the near future (at least in the U.S.).
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Post by maxrider12 on Jun 16, 2011 12:21:38 GMT -8
Sadly, that's all too true... What I don't understand is why women were considered inferior in the first place.
This is a quote from one of my favorite movies, "The King and I." It's a very good movie, about a British woman who goes to teach in Siam. (I think it's called Persia now) This is a quote that actually made me want to scream. Here it is:
A girl is like a blossom, with honey for just one man.
A man is like a honey bee and gather all he can.
To fly from blossom to blossom a bee must be free.
But blossom must not ever fly from bee to bee to bee.
Anyway, I don't know what else to say. Let the movie speak for itself.
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Post by Rowena on Jun 17, 2011 11:04:47 GMT -8
"The King and I" is chock-a-block (bio teacher quote  full of sexism. I mean, he actually buys a woman at one point. It's actually more sexist than Europe was at the time (!) or perhaps the teacher was mostly shocked by the polygamy. Not sure why women were considered inferior in the first place, but it must have started very very very early because in practically every culture from every continent, women being inferior was the common belief until very recently (and in some places it still is). |
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full of sexism. I mean, he actually buys a woman at one point. It's actually more sexist than Europe was at the time (!) or perhaps the teacher was mostly shocked by the polygamy.