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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on May 8, 2011 7:23:44 GMT -8
Because we were talking about this in the TV Shows thread, and both Vivid and Rowena said we should make a War thread for it.
Also, when I can't sleep I sit here and think about this kind of stuff. Nowadays I see a lot of girls my age or older (or younger -shudder-) walking around dressed like /total/ sluts and claiming they are owning their sexuality by doing so.
I shake my head and sigh. Really, I don't like to call people sluts or whores and what not. To quote Tina Fey, "You have got to stop calling each other sluts and whores. It just makes guys think it's okay to call you sluts and whores."
But sometimes...there isn't any other word for it. Wearing a shirt so low cut anyone could stick their hand down there is not "owning your sexuality." Going into a bar, getting completely wasted and making out with a girl purely so that guys will watch is not empowering.
Of course, I have absolutely no problem with getting drunk and kissing a girl--I tell my beta for The District, agent_florida, that'd I'd make out with her in a heartbeat. The feeling is mutual, but the point is that I wouldn't sit there and do it so that guys notice me.
It makes me so sad to see girls in like, middle school doing things to try and seem "sexy" or giving blowjobs to guys at that age. I really want to take them by the shoulders and tell them they don't have to demean themselves like that.
To me, owning your sexuality is being comfortable in who you are, what you want, and your boundaries. I mean, if girls doing the things I described above and are comfortable with it, good for them. That's fine. But...I doubt they are. I know because when the wrong guy pays attention to you, you feel disgusting and dirty and used. (I am totally not victim-blaming here, obviously; victim-blaming makes me feel ill. It's the guy's fault if he treats a girl that way, not the girl's).
You shouldn't have to sit back and pretend you don't want sex at all, or anything, but at the same time, why do you need to shove it someone else's face.
Rane has had four other girlfriends before me. I am the only one out of them who has been open about sex, and wanting him. The rest of them were too 'proper' to do that, and I just don't think that repression does anyone any good, either. xD /rambling
Opinions?
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Post by vividlyvisceral on May 8, 2011 17:23:54 GMT -8
Tuck, you mentioned two things that have always bothered me. Dressing absurdly slutty, and making out with girls for attention.
-if you want to show off your assets, fine. Power to you! I have amazing breasts and I like to dress so that I cover them up (I burn easy, pale skin) but not hide the fact I have them. I had a medley of belts because I like the image it creates by pushing my puppies up. I have a friend who has statue-perfect legs, so she wears short-shorts and skirts to show them off. And another friend who has a waist so skinny that it'd be a crime not to be proud of it.
Fantastic. Girls need to feel gorgeous and- at times- sexy. That is empowering when you can stride down the street feeling like you're glowing because you see a guy or a girl stare after you. When you look in a reflection and think 'I am beautiful and happy.' That I am more than comfortable with, if not approving.
It's when girls wear shorts that may as well be a belt, flashing camel-toes and wearing tops that make bikini tops look like parachutes that I start to get a bit... irked. Most girls will say 'I feel sexy!' and try to pass it off as what I said in the previous paragraph- but it's different when your nipples are on show and guys can see the shape of everything from the bellybutton down.
The difference there is dignity. Without it, that respect for yourself, it's no longer beautiful- but a cry for attention. Any girl who says she prefers dressing that way or is dressing that way for a reason other than attention... well, I'm yet to meet one. Most tend to say 'when I wear this, all eyes are on me.'
Same goes for that 'making out with girls for guys'.
I wanted to punch a girl for pulling this shit and then bragging about it at school. She made out with a girl who is a lesbian (Rather... aggressively so. She claims to 'hate men and find them repulsive', but that's another story.) at a party with the entire 'guys will get off to it' thing in mind.
The poor girl she made out with however, had no idea this was the case- and thought she had finally found a girl who was attracted to her and not afraid of people knowing. When she found out it was because 'guys think girls kissing each other is hot', she burst into tears and the other girl practically ran her out of the group calling her a lesbian.
I was the quiet girl who sat with the group, but wasn't exactly involved in its affairs. However I told her she was being disgusting and should've asked before doing that to that girl (apparently she just rammed her lips against hers and that's how it started) and of course she replied with "She should've known I'm not a lezzo in the first place."
-it's hardly a surprise I left that group for our senior year to sit with people I genuinely respected.
Girls who find themselves attracted to girls I'm fine with. I've been attracted to girls before, just not enough to want to pursue a relationship with (plus I've always been a tad boy-minded). If there's a pair of friends who experiment or something- fine- good that you're figuring out who you are with someone you trust. That's all great. I took a moment and thought 'am I the least bit interested in pursuing a relationship with a woman?' and my immediate answer was 'No.' but when I thought about it I realised that- if some beautiful girl came along and made me feel all the things I felt with Brayden, that I probably would be.
Gender doesn't mean anything to me really. It's just a stereotype we're born with, like our skin colors.
When I went out with my first boyfriend, I was shy and embarrassed about sex and all things involved. He sort of reinforced this by saying 'girls shouldn't talk about it.' while his hand was up my shirt.
We had sex because I was positive that- if I didn't- he would leave me. We'd only been together two weeks, and while it was happening I remember thinking 'Why does it have to be with him?'
It's no surprise we didn't last. He cheated on me, made me feel like shit, and basically forced himself on me whenever he felt like it. If I ever felt like it however- it was usually answered with 'not feeling it.'
It's a two way street buddy. That's why you're single.
Things are different with Brayden. We haven't 'done the deed' yet because the two times we almost did he suffered 'stage fright' and he was too embarrassed to try again. We've decided we'll wait a while until we're completely ready- and I'm fine with that. We can do other things instead. And we can talk about it openly just fine. The fact he's a virgin and he's so smart about everything makes me have hope for other guys out there.
Just in my basic opinion, if the world were a perfect place- there'd be no need to dress up slutty, drink loads and make-out with girls in shady clubs. We'd all voice our opinions/desires appropriately and be respected for them, rather than demeaned.
-one question I have, and it's a pretty standard one- has anyone else realised the whole 'A guy has sex, he's a champion. A girl has sex, she's a slut' stigma? Because I've seen it in action (I was the girl.) and I want to know if anyone else has.
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Purple Embers
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Post by Purple Embers on May 8, 2011 22:40:04 GMT -8
Yes, definitely seen that. Not with people my age but my older cousins (who I'm very close to) have told me about things like that happening to people they know.
But with the whole dress like a slut thing, it really makes me sad when I'm walking down the street and I'll see this 11 or 12 year old girl wearing barely nothing. I mean, I understand that wearing singlets or short shorts to enhance some of your better features is fine, but when you're barely wearing anything well that makes it a little bit more worse. And they'll say, "I'm just expressing myself through my clothing." I just don't think it's right.
Some people I used to hang around with (year 7) would go on about how they weren't a virgin, how they were proud and it was just some guy they didn't even know. Even some people who I would barely know would come up to me and ask if I was a virgin, and I'm in year eight. I don't really hang out with them anymore.
And I'm not this insane religous, saying about sex before marrige is gross and wearing singlets and short shorts is wrong, but walking around basically not wearing anything just doesn't seem okay to me.
Oh Leah, I could hug you: To me, owning your sexuality is being comfortable in who you are, what you want, and your boundaries. (Sorry can't quote things properly.)
Exactly what I have been thinking for so long.
-Glomps-
Ah, so thoughts?
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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on May 9, 2011 10:15:14 GMT -8
Absolutely. That's being comfortable in your skin, and that's a really amazing thing. Because you're happy with yourself, which is so rare among women, it seems. That's a truly wonderful feeling, looking into the mirror and feeling beautiful and proud of who you are. Holding your head up high. =) You know what I really annoys me? When a girl wears jeans so low that you can see her thong. Ugh. >.< I mean I am all for wearing sexy underwear (I wear sexy underwear under regular clothes because it makes me feel secretly naughty xD) but the rest of the world doesn't need to see it, kthnx. Yeah, definitely doesn't show respect for yourself. Because if you really felt proud of your body, you wouldn't be so desperate. Oh my god, that's absolutely horrible. That poor girl. -headshake- I was the quiet girl who sat with the group, but wasn't exactly involved in its affairs. However I told her she was being disgusting and should've asked before doing that to that girl ( apparently she just rammed her lips against hers and that's how it started) and of course she replied with "She should've known I'm not a lezzo in the first place." Ugh, what a total bitch. =/ Nobody deserves to be treated that way. Good for you!  Yeah, it's about being clear with communication, and knowing that there won't be any bad feelings after. Both Flaarda (agent_florida) and I are equally aware of what expectations it'd be, should it ever happen. Because I wouldn't want a relationship with her, and that's mutual (as much as we love each other dearly). Yep, exactly. It's about the person, not anything else. WTF on his part. That just...I don't even... -hug- I'm so sorry that happened. D8 That happens with a lot of girls. Feeling pressured into it, like if they don't the guy won't want to be with them, or love them anymore. Losing my virginity...absolutely no romance in it. It was, "Do you want to do it?" "Okay." And it hurt /so/ bad. It wasn't the right person...I felt empty afterward, and kinda had a bit of a breakdown. I kept doing it...I don't even know why. Obligation, like this is what I was supposed to. He didn't make me feel good about myself at all. -hughughug- That's awful. Happened to me, too. He used to manipulate me into doing it, actually. If I didn't want to, he would ask over and over again until I finally gave in, or kept going for my weak spots, the spots he knew that caused me to melt (like kissing my neck) even if I still didn't want it in my mind. A guy should always, always respect a girl's boundaries when she says no. No exceptions. Rane said to me once, "That wasn't sex. That was closer to rape than anything else." Yeah, took Rane and I a long time before we finally did. Actually, it only happened the last time I saw him, in April. Same thing happened to him--he got really nervous, psyched himself out, and then he couldn't. He was a virgin, too. -nod- 'S good that you're waiting until he's ready. That's the best thing, the sign of a good, healthy relationship that you respect each other boundaries. That's how it should be. I hate that standard so much. It's ridiculous and stupid. Girls shouldn't be labeled just because they have sex--if they are promiscuous or doing it with taken guys, okay. But just having sex itself does not make a slut. I'm sorry you had to put up with that. =/ It puts some guys under pressure, too. Rane lied about being a virgin for years because he was worried about getting shit from other guys that he hadn't done it yet, which is bs. Good thing you don't. Those aren't the type of people to hang out with, for sure. Year 7 is waaaaaaaay too young to be losing it. She's going to regret it years from now, I guarantee it. It's a mistake you cant undo, and that age you are definitely not emotionally mature enough to handle it. Hell, I lost mine at eighteen and I still couldn't handle it emotionally. When I was sixteen and in the hospital, my roommate said to me, "Wait to lose it. Wait for the right person. I regret that I didn't." I should have listened to her. But I didn't. |
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Hannah
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Post by Hannah on May 9, 2011 20:19:08 GMT -8
Jumping in to the conversation:
"has anyone else realised the whole 'A guy has sex, he's a champion. A girl has sex, she's a slut' stigma?"
Yup. I think it's just because of how girls treat each other and guys, and how guys treat each other and girls. And just everyone's different viewpoints in general.
Also, going a bit back to the homosexual/bi topic--I know a few people who are, some of them are really great friends of mine. They accept that I'm not, and support that, and I support them with their choices.
Also, as far as "dressing slutty" goes, I don't, and none of my friends do, and they all told me that if they ever do, I have their permission to punch them in the face as many times as necessary. And I gave them all that same permission. Wanting love is one thing--wanting attention is another.
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Purple Embers
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Post by Purple Embers on May 9, 2011 23:05:30 GMT -8
Ah, so true.
I don't dress slutty but I will wear singlets and short shorts, because seriously I live in a place called the Sunshine Coast, if I wore jeans and a jacket every day, I. Would. Melt.
-Cough- Anyway, so what really counts as dressing inappropriatly these days? I just find it interesting how only probably 20 - 10 years things in the clothing department were so different, does anyone agree?
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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on May 10, 2011 4:07:18 GMT -8
I wouldn't even call myself bi. Or I don't even know. -shrug- Label is a label is a label.
I like the sound of your friends. XD
Besides what I mentioned before...I have no clue. I had a dress code in school, but I don't think they had much of a clue either considering I once got yelled at for wearing my plaid miniskirt, which at the time was not indecently short. Now that I have gotten taller it is starting to creep into that territory, but at the time...it was five years ago. It really wasn't that bad. xD
80's/90's clothes were absolutely awful just in the looks department, though. -shudder- But I always find it interesting how the standards of modesty change. Like how the 1920's was the first time a woman had shown her knees, and flappers were considered "scandalous" as a result.
I think said flappers were actually empowered, though, as opposed to today. Because they still kept their dignity even when they reveled in their new-found freedom. Yeah, they pissed off an older egeneration by chopping off their hair and smoking cigarettes and drinking and doing other 'unladylike" things, but they didn't sit there and whore themselves out...for the most part.
They had standards, and even though at the time they seemed "radical" the freedoms they got were small in hindsight.
Or how some social norms change--or don't change. The losing it before marriage thing for instance. Very much frowned upon a while ago...for instance (yeah I won't go more off topic on this I promise) in the 1930's/40's lifetime I had, I had sex before marriage and when my mother found out she slapped me and called me a slut.
Sadly, that stigma still remains, and it's just so weird to think about since in the media you see "sexsexsexsex" and then you still get that old-fashioned thinking that has seeped in, even to the younger generation, even those who don't think about it from a religious POV.
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Post by Aanaleigh on May 11, 2011 7:15:14 GMT -8
Randomly joining the conversation:
I hate that. I'm practically living that right now.
It makes sense for you to wear things like that. Where I live, it's cold. (I live in Canada, of course it's cold) And even in the summer, it doesn't get all that warm (Maybe 30 degrees C at most nowadays) yet when it's just starting to warm up, you'll see girls at my school wearing the shortest shorts/skirts they can find, and lowcut shirts all the time. That's all you ever see anymore. One girl who used to be my friend used to do that, then purposely drop something in front of guys and then bend over to pick it up while her breasts were practically falling out of her shirt. She even got the school label of 'slut' and she didn't care. She even called herself a slut and liked it.
Everyone has their own opinion on that. Me personally, I think that dressing inappropriatly is dressing like you're trying to get attention, not being yourself, and being comfortable with yourself.
The losing it before marriage thing, though it's not really frowned upon now, considering how much freedom (or not as much as we think) we have now, is still a huge issue, and it bugs me that from the people who -do- still believe in that. They don't care if a guy has done it. The blame always falls on the woman. Someone I used to know, who was my friend, hates me now. She's always firmly believed that you shouldn't have sex before marriage (she's grown up with her parents saying that), and nothing will sway her mind from that. Our friendship disintergrated the day I told her I was raped. In her mind, I didn't try to save it for being married.
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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on May 12, 2011 18:45:37 GMT -8
So much rage at reading that. So, so much rage I can't even begin to describe.
I'm so so sorry that happened. Really. -hug- I know a lot of people who have had that happen....and the victim blaming makes me want to throw something. Because it wasn't your fault, wasn't your choice, and anyone who says it was is a liar and deluded and just...horrible. -shudder-
Even though it meant the loss of a friend...you really don't need that kind of judgment and negativity in your life, for sure.
Victim blaming needs to die in a fire and never come back because it serves no purpose. I once read a thing on LJ about a woman who did a little experiment. She wore revealing clothes for a week, and noted the reaction she got from men--the typical kind. Then she wore something more modest, and still got harassed. Then, finally, something baggy and that covered her curves and guys were still catcalling her or trying to feel her up or something.
So when it comes to that...girls who dress a certain way aren't "asking" to be assaulted. They didn't have a choice in the matter.
We all love you, and you can always shoot me a PM or FFN or email or Skype or whatever if you need to talk. <3
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Post by Aanaleigh on May 15, 2011 18:18:49 GMT -8
It's fine, Leah. *hugs* I'm ... doing better then I was before. Mostly thanks to Shawn.
I agree with the victim blaming. I've seen what can happen. Someone I knew killed himself over it.
Thanks, Leah.
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Post by Rowena on May 17, 2011 13:01:51 GMT -8
*hugs Aanaleigh* I'm so sorry about all of that, Aanaleigh... Your friend sounds like a jerk, no offense. That's my problem with most major religions - they think that if you're doing anything other than what they're doing, you must not be a good person. Just because you're not following their standards doesn't make you a bad person. Obviously in your case it was beyond your control, but when I read that it just reminded me of why I dislike people who are so close-minded. Sorry I'm jumping into this conversation sort of late, but I was MIA because my show was opening. Can I just say my *hugest* pet peeve in this category is girls who make fun of themselves? Like, not calling themselves sluts, but girls in my grade will say they know they "belong in the kitchen" and stuff like that. This pisses me off to no end. Maybe that's more feminism than female empowerment, but I find it so annoying. How can you say something like that about yourself? I simply do not understand. Then my friends get mad at me for pointing out when they're being offensive. Just today I told some of my guy friends that they shouldn't be making sexist or anti-gay jokes, even if they don't think like that, because it sends the message that it's okay for other people to think like that. Had my friend who is a co-head of our school's GSA been there, she would have agreed with me, but she wasn't, so basically everyone thought I was over-reacting. I mean, one of my friends probably just thought that because she likes the guy I was telling off, but she wouldn't admit that when I confronted her about it. Sorry. A little off topic, but that's been on my mind since this morning. Anyway. I completely agree with pretty much everything that's already been said...recently a guy I know got a blowjob from his girlfriend (he's a sophmore, she's a freshman) and within a day, our whole grade knew. Apparently his girlfriend isn't even a virgin. I believe in sex before marriage, but not in sex before you're in love. Why do it then? One time, two of my friends and I were talking, and I asked how long they'd have to know a guy before they'd sleep with him. One of my friends and I both said months; it would depend, but we would have to love him. The other friend said a week, and knowing her, that's probably gone down by now. Anywho...I also agree about the whole dressing inappropriatley thing. Like, I usually wear skirts because I prefer them, and even if my shorts are a little out of dresscode they're nothing compared to what most of the girls in my grade wear. I mean, I usually just dress really fancy but don't care what anyone thinks because I figure no-one's looking at me anyway. One more thing and then I'll go do my algebra homework, really - When I was in Middle School (bane of my existence that it was) I started getting self concious about my size. So one day, I'm wearing this outfit that I feel great in. Looking back, it was a little silly, but at the time I felt amazing (for once). And then we have this meeting with all of the girls in our class about dress code and they remind us what it is, etc. And after the meeting the assistant principle comes up to me and tells me to put on a sweatshirt because my shirt was too low. It pissed me off so much - Without a cami the shirt was low cut, but I was wearing a cami with it, and I'd worn it without a cami to school before and no one had commented. That's probably off topic, but it came to mind  Sorry I'm ranting. I really like this topic. That same year, one of my friends spent a two-night trip our grade took to Philadelphia telling me how fat I was - really, girls need to band together and not gang up on each other, both in regards to calling each other sluts/whores and in regard to being nice and not making other girls feel so bad that they think they need a guy to validate them. |
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Post by vividlyvisceral on May 17, 2011 16:33:26 GMT -8
Oh lord. I'm sorry you had to go through that Aanaleigh. That's awful. I mean, I had an entire year scrutinizing me because they didn't know me, and somehow that made it slightly less painful. None of my real friends were hurtful, including one who was coming out of the closet and could've really used me as a gossip distraction.
Like so many others- it's why I hate organized religions. The stigma that surrounds sex. My own mother was raped as a teenager, and to have people tell me that it's "her own fault" or that "she didn't fight hard enough" is infuriating. The way she sobbed to me when I was only nine, telling me that she shouldn't tell me why she was crying until I was older- I'm never going to forget that.
However, I've learned it doesn't just ruin the victim's life, it can spread to the guilty party's familly. Brayden's father was a policeman... until he raped one of his female students and was sent to jail. The story spread like fire, and everywhere my boyfriend went, who is without a doubt the sweetest most perfect boy I've ever met, the story followed him and his family.
People say horrible things. "Son of a rapist" is the crowd favorite. He'd try to wave it off, but his own mother has begun to say things like "It's in your DNA. I wouldn't be surprised." to all three of her sons, and he's become terrified of that idea.
I love him. And I tell him all the time that it's not a "genetic thing". The thought that something his father has done has to haunt his sons who have done nothing upsets me greatly. One act, and it creates so many victims...
-something a little controversial, but I want it out there- I have to say there's one other thing I don't like that's related to female empowerment.
There's a chain of stores here in Australia called 'David Jones', perhaps you have it in America- I don't know, but last year there was a 'sex scandal' involving the CEO and a woman in the company. She sued for millions, and at first everyone was cheering her on, and so was I... until I learned that what he had done was sent her a handful of inappropriate texts and once said at an office party something along the lines of "so... wanna?"
-the woman kept saying that she wouldn't stand for being violated. And I would watch in anger.
Yeah, he sexually harassed you- but you weren't violated. Why do you deserve millions for a handful of shitty texts and a drunken comment- because he has millions to lose? Don't call that 'asserting your right', you're going fucking overboard. Rape victims who end up with children don't get a quarter of that much!, barely an eighth. THEY were violated. You just needed to alert the proper authorities you idiot woman...
Newspapers kept saying that it was women asserting their power- and I wanted to scream throughout the country that it wasn't asserting power- it was abusing it. If she hadn't been pretty, hadn't been in her twenties, hadn't dressed the way she had- no one would've given a damn. If she was an every day mary-jane, no one would've cared.
I know this sounds awful, but I hate most of the women who represent females on the whole. Is this a role model I'm meant to look up to? Because I refuse. I'd rather be like J.K Rowling or Anne Hathaway, nice women who respect themselves but still live good lives.
I'm off for a bit, but I'd love to hear any thoughts or further musings. (I like war topics. Should we create one for feminism?)
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Purple Embers
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Post by Purple Embers on May 17, 2011 22:33:57 GMT -8
Yes, a feminism topic sounds great, where I can rant and rant and my friends can't tell me to shut up. -Sigh-
-Cough- Anyway, I saw that David Jones case also. At the start I was thinking, wow isn't this great, she's standing up for herself. But then she just kept wanting more and more money and it got so terrible and it made me so angry.
And what you just said Vivid, about rape victims with children barely getting a fraction of this money, it made me feel so, so angry. It is not fair that a women who was barely even violated has gotten all this money just because the person who did this to heris absolutly stinking rich.
And all these role models that are famous and we should "look up to." Some of them make me feel a bit ill. Do you know what Victoria Beckham said a little while ago?
"Brazillians should be made a rule by the time a women turns 15."
-Shudder-
And we are supposed to look up to these people? Pft.
And Aanaleigh, I'm so sorry about that. That is my problem with most religons, they drill a message into your head until even the things that aren't someone's fault, still look like a rule that has been broken.
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Post by Rowena on May 18, 2011 14:23:54 GMT -8
I'm totally going over to the feminism topic after this (for the same reason Em is - 'cause I can rant and no one can tell me I'm over reacting!).
Vivid, I hadn't heard about that (since I don't live in Australia) but I completely agree with what you said. The worst part is that had she actually been violated and not been pretty, or in her twenties, no one would have cared. And that's what is wrong with our society today, in my opinion.
These are the kind of women I can't stand. I mean, really - that's the sort of comment that would undoubtedly be labeled sexist had any male celebrity said it, so why is it okay just because she's female? I'm still offended. Even worse, a woman saying something like this sends the message that it is "okay" for men to say it too, when it's completely not okay.
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Post by Peeta the Frosting Prince on May 18, 2011 18:41:13 GMT -8
ew, what an awful comment to make. And I used to like her. =/
I just find that outrageous, that woman going on and on about a few texts. That's really nothing, and sure isn't "violation". I had some guy try to pull me onto his lap and attempt do gods knows what, and I didn't kick up a fuss (as gross as it was). Those who are real victims almost never get much, as y'all said.
What's awful is cases between like, girlfriend and boyfriend or husband and wife. Where even though they are together...that doesn't mean every act can be consensual, yet so many people just brush that aside.
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Sorry I'm ranting. I really like this topic. That same year, one of my friends spent a two-night trip our grade took to Philadelphia telling me how fat I was - really, girls need to band together and not gang up on each other, both in regards to calling each other sluts/whores and in regard to being nice and not making other girls feel so bad that they think they need a guy to validate them.
