Abortion

[megasaurus]

In the entire time that I have been alive so far, and the entire time that I will be alive this is, and probably always will be, a contriversial topic as well as a taboo in society.

There's the whole argument of the fact that you're taking away a human life that's about to be born, and that it's their decision and sometimes it's for the best.

If you're a 16 year old girl who's preggers and you know you can'y finacially support your child, is it okay to kill it because it would be better off then being neglected and possibly starve? or is that wrong and you should still put yourself through an extreme amount of pain from child birth and then give your child up for adoption? Is that any better, having your child grow up never knowing it's real parents and always wondering what if?

And then what about if you've been raped and then you get preggers, what then?

Topic that is totally open for discussion, and I'd love to hear what you guys think.

[vividlyvisceral]

While my opinion is fairly common, I have reasons behind it.

I think abortion is something all women should be allowed to have if they need it. I don't believe in the "it's a living being and has all the rights you have" stance that Pro-Life crowds believe in, but I believe in the Pro-Choice message.

Okay, I don't think it should be a form of contraception for pregnancy- use a condom or go on the pill- but if a girl or a woman gets pregnant by accident or by rape- why should she be forced to have a child and change her life forever when it's avoidable?

I feel strongly about this topic because my mother had two abortions, one when she was raped- the other because she couldn't afford to have a child at that point in her life. She went on to have me and my sister, and would burst into tears when I would one day say that "people who kill babies are terrible people."

Seeing my mother cry like that... it's enough to make anyone realise that this is something that people don't want to do, it's something they sometimes have to do.

[Rowena]

I agree with Vivid. I think that every woman should have the right to choose for herself, and other people shouldn't judge her for it because they don't understand her reasoning. Personally I don't think I would be able to do that myself, but hopefully I will never have to make that choice. Besides, offering legal abortions is much healthier than outlawing it and then having women sustaining greater injury when they have illegal abortions.

Also, there's the interesting data from the book Freakonomics (or maybe it's Super Freakonomics? I can't remember which) that crime rate went down in the U.S. after abortion was legalized because the children that weren't being born were the ones who would have been growing up to become criminals, which I found very interesting.

[megasaurus]

What I really hate about abortion is the looks that people give you when they find out that you've had an abortion. My friend was 21 and she got preggers, she had been using birth control, but she still got preggers. She wasn't ready for a child right then, she was inexperienced, she had no money, and she knew the child wouldn't grow up in a safe environment, so she went and got an abortion.

When people find out about that though, she gets looks of disgust from people as they say how horrible that was to kill her own child. She didn't want the child to end up, quote, "I don't want my baby to become like me, it's better for her to not be born than to live the way I have." She was born under the same circumstances so she chose to have an abortion.

It just sickens me how people can't accept that it's a person's decision to get an abortion, especially when they say, "Oh it's fine if you get an abortion, but only if you're raped." Does it matter how you got pregnant?

[Rowena]

I think it's a much more mature decision to get an abortion if you know you won't be able to give the child a good life. People shouldn't judge peopel for having the good sense to make that choice.

[Aanaleigh]

I've always maintained that abortion should be open to all women, but not if you're going to get one every time you get pregnant because you weren't using protection.
For myself personally, I could never go through with it. Even if I didn't have the money or anything to raise a child, I'd never get an abortion.
But if that pregnancy test had come up positive, I think my mind would have changed. I wouldn't want to become one of those women who don't get one if they get pregnant through rape, because those children are always looked at differently by their mother.

[KATE]

Well, I'm going to step out here and be the odd one out. Now, I understand both sides of the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, but I find myself more on the Pro-Life side of things. I understand that people have their reasons for abortion, and I will accept their decision. I would never say that someone is a bad person for their decisions, they simply had a different train of thought than me.

I think that a person's reason for wanting an abortion plays a very large role in this but then I still have that what if thought. What could the child become if allowed to live?

Personally, no matter what, if I was pregnant I would give birth to the child. It might be partially because I was raised in a family that has been very close and I know I would always be supported and have help. My family would expect to keep the child no matter what and raise it like they've done with every other child born in the family.
My grandmother had a miscarriage the first time she was pregnant. Also with that, my mother's first husband, my biological father, became abusive after they found out my mom was pregnant. She decided to leave him and he decided that if he couldn't have me no one would and hit my mother in the stomach trying to kill me. I was born a month early and was surprisingly healthy.My aunt became preganant from a one night stand, she didn't know she was pregnant, her periods were normal, she didn't show, she went into labor 10 months in. She led a single life, her career was successful, she was happy with her life and never wanted chilren, my mom offered to adopt her before my aunt could put my little cousin up for adoption outside the family. Needless to say she decided to keep the baby. From that way of thinking my mom came to the conclusion and raised me in that mindset that every child deserves to at least be born. Don't take for the granted the chances you have at being pregnant. \

If you can't afford to raise the child, adoption is an option, many people out in the world are unable to have kids, they would love the chance to adopt, and if they are good people they will see to it the child understands that the baby was given up to a better life not just not an uncaring mother. If you're afraid of the pain from labor, I'm sorry but thats what women's bodies were designed for, and unless it was rape, it was partly your decision to begin with. I'm sorry if that sounds close minded.

Also, I had a friend, her mother was raped and she was the product and was put up for adoption. AS she got older she contacted her birth mother and thanked her for giving her the life she grew up in.

So yes, I do not support abortion. I am not against it, exactly, but I can't say I am for it.

[Hannah]

*takes a deep breath*

Oh, goody, the issue that completely split up my family...

Well, I have a lot of opinions on this one, so prepare yourselves for some ranting if you choose to read this. It sort of starts out with a story:

When I was six, my sister ran away from home. Why? Because my parents were so focused on me. Fine. My fault.

Moving on from that, afterwards, what did my sister do? Why, she had three kids of course! Harvey, Dillon, and Julie-Ann Nicole: my three nieces and nephews. Problem: she has health disorders, has no money, and no help--since no one in my family is allowed to talk to her (thanks to my lovely parents, of course) without getting basically cursed out (not fun to be on the receiving end of that one, let me tell you).

Now, obviously, here, she kept all three kids. They'll probably suffer because of it--being raised poor by a probably unsuiting mother who's husband abandoned them all a long time ago. I don't know if she's even still in this state now. So, my mom and dad's points were that she should've: a. just taken birth control or not had kids in the first place or b. gotten an abortion.

She disagreed, and kept the kids.

So, who do I think was right? Honestly, I think that no one was right. It wasn't right of my sister to do something that would eventually end up splitting up our family, make both of my parents start to suffer from anxiety/depression, and make me end up feeling guilty and practically getting punished for trying to talk to her.

But I don't think that my parents were right for not really giving her a choice--just refusing to talk to her ever again. My dad hasn't talked to his own adoptive daughter for seven years. SEVEN YEARS. I think it's been about two or three (years) since my mom or I talked to her--my mom kept talking to her for a while, and let me, but then about the time she found out she was pregnant with her third kid, stopped that. Didn't let me say goodbye or nothin'.

So then I hated that she hadn't really been given great choices.

Basically, for me, this issue is all about the situation. And everybody should always have a choice.

[Peeta the Frosting Prince]

I think women should always be allowed to have a choice in the matter.

See, last June I was that girl in a crappy drugstore bathroom, waiting to see if my life would change. I had used protection--condoms--but I had still missed my period. Those were some of the scariest moments of my life, waiting to see if I was or I wasn't because the potential baby's father was the guy who abused me.

It came out negative, and honestly I don't know what I would have done had I actually been pregnant for several reasons. One being that...okay, this going to sound absolutely awful but I am going to say it anyway: I would have a hard time looking at that child and not associating it with the abuse I went through, and the fact that some of the times I had sex with the abuser it was that weird border between consent and non-consent. Also, I would get thrown out of my house if I was--when I had another scare I nearly did end up thrown onto the streets for it.

That being said, I am not sure abortion is something I could go through personally, and I think those who do so after having been raped or are unable to keep the baby for reasons that are not "lol I don't use birth control" are incredibly strong women.

I am not really sure about the whole "killing a child" thing. when a fetus becomes a child or when it doesn't, and this is complicated by own little shadow--the spirit of my future child follows me around sometimes like a little duckling.

But no matter what, I believe that women have the right to do what they wish with their bodies, even if other people don't like it.

[maxrider12]

*Takes a deep breath* This issue happens to be one I feel very strongly about, and on different days I feel different things. So here's what I feel today. (Oh, and please don't hate me for what I'm saying, as it doesn't seem to fit into this forum's norm)

I feel like destroying life before it had the chance to begin is wrong. Scientists don't yet know if fetuses are able to have complete thoughts, or feel pain. I would hate to think that abortions are causing fetuses any pain, and I would hate to think about if they had ambitions. I know it's unlikely, but I can't stop thinking about it.

Also, I feel like aborting babies is no different than killing newborns. I feel like people feel that, since the baby is already inside of them, there's no real life there.

If I were faced with an unwanted pregnancy and people were telling me to get an abortion, all I'd be able to think about would be that little baby, dying inside of me and never seeing the great things in life. That baby would never see sunshine, or hear music, or taste chocolate, or smell fresh rain, or feel the softness of a kitten. They'd never swim in a cool lake or dance in a field of flowers. This sounds really cheesy, but I would want my baby to experience all the things I have and more. So I wouldn't be able to go through with an abortion, and I don't understand how some people do it mindlessly. I'm not saying EVERYONE who has an abortion does it mindlessly, but some people do.

Anyway, I'd rather have unwanted babies who have felt sunshine than dead fetuses who will never feel anything but pain.

Say what you want about this post, but it's how I feel, and nothing can change that. I know it's out of the norm, but I feel this way, so you can say what you want.

[KATE]

Well you're not completely alone in that Max, I tend to lean in that direction as well. I believe everyone has a choice, but personally I believe in every child gets a chance to live.

I think one question that really has to be answered concerning this is when does a fetus get to be considered a child. This is another thing that my up bringing plays a factor in. I was taught a baby is never called an 'It' even if its 5 seconds after conception, or 5 weeks after you find out if the baby is boy or girl. But then, when I've taken a biological standing on this I've realized that probably the best way to decide when a 'fetus' becomes a child is after blastulation in development. A blastula is the key stage of development (usually around the 1000th cell development) that makes animals, animals. And after that point there is scientific reasoning that an unborn child can be considered a living being.

[maxrider12]

(Okay this message is gonna sound all science-y)

But wouldn't even a single cell be considered a living being? Like in plankton, how some are considered both plants and animals. No one knows which they are, but they're still considered to be alive. So even the first cell in a fetus would be alive, and even though they aren't a full child yet, they're still alive.

Anyway, aside from my science-ness, I agree that at no time should any living being be called an "It." Whenever someone says, oh, "Look at the cat, it's so cute!" I think about the book "A Wrinkle In Time," in which a huge brain called IT controls all of planet Camazot (I don't know if I got the name right). So when someone says, "Look at the cat, it's so cute!" I think they're saying, "Look at that, the giant all-controlling tyrannical brain is so cute!" So even if I don't know the sex of an animal, I say, "Look at the cat, she's so cute!" (I use "she" as a generic cat sex, "he" for dogs, etc. etc. It varies)

Okay, getting off topic...

Basically what I'm trying to say is, when people talk about their having an abortion (not that they would talk about it) they'll probably say, "Oh yeah, I had it aborted" as though the baby, whether they be a single cell or eight months developed, the baby was never alive to them. I find this infuriating because I hate how any mother would actually destroy something inside of herself.

(Oh yeah, this is a book reference)

In Twilight (Breaking Dawn) (SPOILER ALERT!!!!) Bella is having a baby. Even when it begins to make her sick, break her bones, and force her to drink human blood, she refuses to let Edward or Jacob hurt the baby. If a mother who had to endure all that pain wouldn't abort her baby, why would a mother who simply didn't have time for a baby have an abortion?

Okay, it's like midnight right now and this message is getting way too long, so I'm gonna wrap it up with a goodnight!

[Rowena]

Although I agree with you in that I don't think I could ever have an abortion, although I hope I am never faced with the choice, I would just like to point out that you can't have an abortion if you've been pregnant for eight months. (I don't think that's what you meant when you said "as though the baby, whether they be a single cell or eight months developed, was never alive to them." I'm just pointing it out.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but after a certain stage of development I don't think you can have an abortion.

Also, re: the Twilight thing, I don't think we should be using Bella - who, without Edward, is reduced to (basically) an emotionless blob who wants to die and who forgoes college and any chance of her own career to marry, live with, and rely completley on her semi-abusive boyfriend - as a shining example of motherhood, or be comparing real, three-dimensional women to her. I don't mean to offend you and I respect your opinion, I'm just sharing mine. Plus, Bella's child, despite almost killing her, would be completley well supported once it was born. If a woman knows she won't be able to support/care for her child the way she'd like to, I'd support her decision to have an abortion when the other option is, probably, that the kid would grow up in not-so-great conditions.

It is the people who don't have time to support a baby but have one anyway, only to hand the kid off to the full-time nanny, who baffle me. *mutters* But that's another topic for another day...

[maxrider12]

When I said "or eight months developed" I simply meant "as far as a baby can develop before there is no way to abort it." And with the Bella thing, you're probably right. But I did know a woman who's baby was causing her a lot of pain. This baby actually did break her ribs. But she didn't let anybody tell her to get an abortion.

Anyway, here's the rest of my post!

There are actually some women who have a wonderful job that pays a lot and allows them to be home a lot (like my mom. She's a work-at-home consulatant and she just sold a $50,000 project) but they abort their baby. Why? They say it's because "a baby would distract them." If they're under the same circumstances as my mom, a baby wouldn't distract them from getting their work done. I have stayed home when I had strep and my mom was able to bring me breakfast, lunch, and dinner as well as antibiotics and drinks while still working.

(This will probably bring up another "we shouldn't compare this to real people" issue, but whatever) In the book Unwind by Neil Shusterman, humanity has started to "stork" unwanted babies; abortion isn't available and women who got pregnant but can't support their baby have the option to give it to someone else. They simply place the baby on someone's doorstep and, if they get away without being seen, the baby is no longer theirs. They can do that, or put them up for adoption. Sadly, there were about 50 babies to one nurse in the adoption agencies. Someone (I think it was Risa, to those of you who've read the book) brought up the question: "Is it better to have thousands of unwanted babies in the world or to kill them quietly before they're born?"

I'm gonna leave it hanging on that question, 'kay?

[Rowena]

If the baby was large enough to break her ribs, wouldn't it have been too far developed to get an abortion anyway?

Sorry, technicality

If someone thinks a baby would distract them, other people really have no right to tell her differently. An observer has no idea what her life is really life. Better the baby be aborted than grow up to be cared for by nannies 24/7 (as I go to a private school where my mom used to teach 1st grade, she saw this with a lot of her students) which (unsuprisingly) can give a child a lot of issues, or (if the pregnant woman isn't lucky enough to be so financially secure when taking care of herself and a child) growing up in a bad situation and possibly becoming a criminal. 15-20 years after abortion was legalized in the U.S. (I forget the exact number of years), the crime rate dropped off significantly. Why? Because all the babies that hadn't been born would have been reaching their criminal peak and contributing to the crime rate. Just a fun fact there

So, in response to your question, being unwanted can have lost of negative consequences ranging from depression to crime, so I would not want to have thousdands of unwanted babies in the world. Also, isn't the number of babies per nurse in most adoption agencies a ridiculously high number today in places where abortions aren't widely available/legal? Doesn't that sort of make the point that legalizing abotion/making it more widely available would solve that problem?

As one of the authors in the book I'm reading, Yes Means Yes, pointed out, even if you give the fetus all of the rights of a born person, and therefore criminalize abortion, when you force a woman to give birth against her will (or withold from her the ability to have an abortion), you are forcing her not only to carry the child for nine months and then raise it afterwards, but to use her body and her internal organs to sustain someone else's life. You would never tell someone that, legally, they had to let a born person live off of their body and internal organs for nine months, which is basically what the government was doing when abortion was illegal, so why would you give a fetus, even if it was equaling a born person, that right?

Sorry for the rant, but I thought that was a really interesting way of thinking about it.